Ethics Question

JohnnyFlake

Alpha Silverback
Maybe I missed it, but I still cannot figure out who the vendor is and to be honest, I do not know which other board or group is being referred to. I would really like to know the ID of the vendor in question and I would love to know about the other board that was referred to over and over.

Johnny
 

TU09

Lowland Gorilla
i believe everyoner deserveds a 2nd chance, especially if itmight have been an honest mistake/miscomunication-i debated posting (since this is literally my 1st post) but here's my opinion fwiw-it doesn't sound like it happend on purpose, so give him the chance to show what type of guy he is by attempting to make it right-if he don't, out him
Mistake / miscommunication doesn't matter. Dealing with the headaches of a small business on a daily basis I can assure you, the owner is responsible for all the actions of his employees if for no other reason than he hired them. If the vendors response is accurate, which I have no reason to doubt at this point, he is still at fault. The fact that he tried to make it right helps but it was too late and the second offer, the offer to sell it at cost, was not customer service but an attempt to save his reputation. :2
 

fireman43

Elder Jungle A-Hole
As far as I am concerned - once the credit card info was exchanged the humidor was yours. Re-selling the item amounts to a liar and thief in my book. Tar and feather would be too good in this situation - pisses me off, greedy bastard.


Ron

I will agree wholeheratedly with RGD on this. Once he took your credit card info, the deal was sealed IMO. Just my:2
 

hornitosmonster

5 Rings and Counting
Ouch. Hope that profit was good enough to cover his loss of business. NOT!!

Thank Al Gore for the internet..that way we can stay away for crooks!!
 

jinny

Lowland Gorilla
That's probably not correct, as the vendor has made admissions that prove discdog's case fairly clearly. Further a record of the transactions involved would not be hard to reproduce.
I won't try to predict an outcome of a hypothetical small claims case... any case can be won or lost based numerous things. and I didn't read the other linked thread... I was speaking in generalities and playing devil's advocate in a situation where some parties involed are not well represented at this time here in this thread. I would think that the vendor in question would not go to small claims court unprepared so while I wouldn't say impossible, winning would be difficult.

An "otherwise good local business" strongly implies that they are not good in some respects and should be reported to the BBB!
I was trying to imply that given the situation that ANY business would have done the same... and if not, it could be indicative of a business that wouldn't survive very long. although, another business may have been better at dealing with the situation... again, the vendor hasn't been here to defend themselves and that isn't necessarily an admission of guilt or impropriety. Perhaps ultimately this vendor deserves all that is coming to them. but if the problem is that they made the mistake of being more honest of the situation that occurred than other vendors given the same situation, then I wouldn't be so quick to ding them.

However, sometimes it's and legally wrong, as in this case apparently.
I don't know enough about the situation to make a judgment about the legality... the only thing I am comfortable in saying at this time is that, ethically, it appears questionable.

Payment doesn't have to be taken to form a binding contract.
sure that is true, but in this case it doesn't matter... to what extent the contract is enforceable was probably not negotiated...a nd it really doesn't matter simply for the fact that the item no longer exists for the parties involved... therefore, regardless of what contract was made, it just sucks.

Supply wasn't tentative when the vendor expressly agreed to sell the 1/500 edition.
this probably runs into the realm of opinion... as an owner of a business with an import/export wing, I have made plenty of deals where I have been certain of supply that eventually disappeared... sometimes it's an "act of God", sometimes I was just comforted by a good story from the supplier... sometimes I've had to prepay for this supply that failed to materialize... and sometimes, I've had to take a financial hit for it as well... as a rule, I assume is always tentative until I have it in hand... and I was speculating that the vendor assumed the same because he did not charge the credit card... always with the assumtion that until he ships it, he can't be 100% sure... and even after shipping, it's not 100%... but the vendor's responsibility is greatly diminished.

See previous post: Bad ethics, bad deal.
yes. agreed
 

TU09

Lowland Gorilla
I was trying to imply that given the situation that ANY business would have done the same... and if not, it could be indicative of a business that wouldn't survive very long.
:BS :BS :BS

I sincerely hope I never have an occassion to do business with you. My small businesses are all focused on hospitality and realestate/construction and I can assure you, while I might bump up my margin a bit by screwing a customer once, I would lose valuable repeat business and referals and this applies both to my corporate and private clients.
 

ATLHARP

No Good Bastage!
If that is the way it went down it is simply BAD BUSINESS. I would not shop with them again. Sorry you had that happen. RJT
:tpd:

I concur, this is a very bad business type of deal. If this vendor does business on the board this incident should be added to either his/her transaction rating or user notes. He should held up for public ridicule.......:2


ATL
 

punch

Grumpy Old Man
I like it. Screw a guy out of a done deal for more profit, and then offer to sell him something else "at cost". Sleeeeeeeezzzzzzzyyyyyyyyyyyyyy. I almost want to take a shower after reading this thread. I think that for the first time, this curmudgeon has to agree with everyone here, except Jinny.

Very sorry for your loss, DiscDog. You handled it with class. If this vendor has an internet site, I'd like to know so that I don't do business there myself.
 

livwire68

Got Guns???
I have been just kicking back and reading since it has started. All I can say is I wont be doing business with them and I am glad to know about their ethics. I am real big on that and how I am treated by the people I do business with. Sorry to hear about you situation!
 

snowy

Evolving Lead Gorilla
I was trying to imply that given the situation that ANY business would have done the same... and if not, it could be indicative of a business that wouldn't survive very long. although, another business may have been better at dealing with the situation... again, the vendor hasn't been here to defend themselves and that isn't necessarily an admission of guilt or impropriety. Perhaps ultimately this vendor deserves all that is coming to them. but if the problem is that they made the mistake of being more honest of the situation that occurred than other vendors given the same situation, then I wouldn't be so quick to ding them.
Jinny,

I think you are giving this vendor too much credit. No self respecting businessman would tell a customer that he just sold the product that was sold to you for more money. That is just foolish and idiotic. Even if the vendor sold the product for more money to another customer he could have made many excuses to the original buyer not to piss him off. I think the vendor misread DD. The vendor probably thought that he could start a bidding war on the product....
 

jinny

Lowland Gorilla
:BS :BS :BS

I sincerely hope I never have an occassion to do business with you. My small businesses are all focused on hospitality and realestate/construction and I can assure you, while I might bump up my margin a bit by screwing a customer once, I would lose valuable repeat business and referals and this applies both to my corporate and private clients.
sorry, maybe I'm being too honest... I should try to be more clear... first I should separate out one of the suppositions... namely that the vendor deliberately reneged on the deal... which I do not believe he has admitted to, nor has it actually been proven to have occurred... at least not proven to me... yet. in retrospect I admit it is somewhat unclear, but I meant that given the circumstance that the vendor believed that he had held the item for sale, but it was sold for a higher amount by another party, was understandable for the vendor to enter in the agreement with the customer... the problem there would be his relationship with the other party for reneging on the agreement to hold the item for the vendor; however, I was also suggesting that this could be a "story" to cover up whatever reason there was for the botched sale. maybe too confusing to state both ideas in one post.

I'd like to clear the air for the benefit of my own reputation. I don't approve of what appears to have happened... but I also don't think a vendor should be subjected to a public hanging without airing their side of the story... and I'm also not suggesting that it shouldn't be discussed either... I appreciate that the original post was very circumspect and mindful in the way such an unpleasant subject was broached.
 
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volfan

not selling a product
jinny,

I understand your point and if said vendor would have posted something here he would have kept a little credibility with me. He is a member and has chosen not to post anything here. This shows me that the vendor does not care what CS thinks. Just my opinion though.

scottie
 

jinny

Lowland Gorilla
Jinny,

I think you are giving this vendor too much credit. No self respecting businessman would tell a customer that he just sold the product that was sold to you for more money. That is just foolish and idiotic. Even if the vendor sold the product for more money to another customer he could have made many excuses to the original buyer not to piss him off. I think the vendor misread DD. The vendor probably thought that he could start a bidding war on the product....
perhaps I am... and that's an idea I was trying to suggest... but perhaps I
bumbled the point.. the vendor shouldn't have intimated that this had occurred... it's such a fine line... if they were fishing to get a better price then that really sucks... if they were trying to be honest by detailing the true circumstances of the deal gone awry, then then IMO, they should be applauded... I was merely pointing out the impression I got which was that everyone seems to be assuming the vendor did this malicious/unethical act... which he hasn't been proven to have done... but at the same time point out that I am not surprised if they did... confusing? yes.
 

TU09

Lowland Gorilla
in retrospect I admit it is somewhat unclear, but I meant that given the circumstance that the vendor believed that he had held the item for sale, but it was sold for a higher amount by another party, was understandable for the vendor to enter in the agreement with the customer... the problem there would be his relationship with the other party for reneging on the agreement to hold the item for the vendor; however, I was also suggesting that this could be a "story" to cover up whatever reason there was for the botched sale. maybe too confusing to state both ideas in one post.

The vendor in question owns several stores (4 I believe) and, after makeing the sale and telling his manager to pull the product, it was still sold to another customer for more $. Now, this manager is his employee, from the customer's perspective (the one that counts) the same entity. He is responsible for his manager's actions. It wasn't a matter of his supplier not coming through, it wasn't sold by "another party," his business already had the product in it's posession and reneged on the deal. Whether or not it was deliberate is of no consequence. In business your intentions mean nothing, it is the end result that counts. If nothing else he should have made a few face saving gestures, regardless of the circumstances, rather than informing the customer that it was sold for a higher price to a walk in cusomer. As I am sure you know since you are in business, shit happens but how one handles it is what makes or breaks your reputation.

I also don't think a vendor should be subjected to a public hanging without airing their side of the story
The vendor in question is a CS member and still has the opportunity to defend himself. Though he has not posted here yet, his side of the story can be found via the link to stogiechat.
 

livwire68

Got Guns???
Post number 40 for those that missed it.


Looks like everything has been settled out between the two parties.


Ron
I am not sure how things were settled, other than the vendor was trying to justify his bad ethics. If you mean settled by "I wont be giving them my business again" Then yes it has been settled! I get treated like crap from people who pay me for it weekly, I would not get treated like crap from someone I am paying! In my book a little respect still goes a long way!
 

jinny

Lowland Gorilla
At the risk of needlessly digging a deeper hole for myself, I'd like to clear the air.

I was NOT trying to defend the vendor's apparent actions... I was trying to suggest that all businesses have some level of cut-throat-ness (if that is even a word) so it wouldn't surprise me if the vendor DID renege... everybody has their price and maybe a couple hundred bux was his...

BUT from what little I know about this deal, the vendor had been very open about where the item was and the "story" didn't change... the item was not in his control, but he had every reason to believe that he would be able to very quickly bring the item into his control and ultimately send the item to the customer... making a promise under those circumstances is not unreasonable. But things did not go as planned... which is not unheard of... and I don't want to give the vendor too much credit, but perhaps the pause after the first explanation was for another reason... perhaps they were hoping for another resolution that the customer might initiate... perhaps they were distracted... perhaps they were all a wreck from the deal-gone awry... who knows... right now all we have to go by is the impressions of the customer who, by the way, is understandably already upset... that impression being that it seemed like they vendor was fishing for more money... but even that didn't manifest... the customer didn't pursue it so we can't be sure that the vendor was indeed trying for that angle... and now, in retrospect, all the vendor has to do is conveniently deny it.


As difficult as it is to run a small business, I would hate to ruin an the reputation of an otherwise good vendor because of a misunderstanding.

and this thread has not been here long enough to discount the vendor from chiming in at some point. I'm still interested in hearing from him... he's got lots of 'splainin' to do.
 
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